Curse

Arrogant Bastard · Feb 10, 2010, 11:02 AM // 11:02

All these statements supporting the viability of a motigon does not change the fact that ER and N/Rit heroes are better.

A monk hero will probably do better as well.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 10, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

All these statements supporting the viability of a motigon does not change the fact that ER and N/Rit heroes are better.

A monk hero will probably do better as well.

I have a fair amount of experience with motigons, I used one as the only healer when I was vanquishing Ascalon. IMO the paragon can't keep up with the raw healing power of monks or ritualists in single-target healing, either of those two can heal for more and do it more frequently. However, Paragon has a lot of party heals, and they can pump these out at relatively low cost compared to the Monk or Ritualist equivalents. Also the paragon has a few healing options (finales) that monks and ritualist simply cannot match. If the paragon is alone these are nothing to get excited about, but in a whole group of paragons with shouts ending every second or two they are very powerful... that finale of restoration may get you 65 healing whenever a shout ends, for 30 seconds or so. if you have a shout ending every 3 seconds that is ~650 healing for 5 energy. O_o Same story applies to the Finale of Purification. Remove 10 conditions for 5 energy? Yes please. Also the paragon condition cleaning skills are unmatched by any other profession... Song of Purification can clean 24 conditions for a cost of 5 adrenaline, Cautery Signet cleans any number of conditions for no energy at all.

That said... the motivation skills generally get stronger in groups with multiple paragons, with a more normal group I'd say stick with monk, ritualist, N/Rt, E/Mo.

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

That said... the motivation skills generally get stronger in groups with multiple paragons, with a more normal group I'd say stick with monk, ritualist, N/Rt, E/Mo.

This.

Still a work in progress meant for my Paragon character:

Motigon P:

[build][Anthem of Fury][Merciless Spear][Finale of Restoration][Mending Refrain][Purifying Finale][Ballad of Restoration][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

Command P/Rt:

[build][Signet of Spirits][Splinter Weapon][Vicious Attack][Hexbreaker Aria]["Go for the Eyes!"][Anthem of Disruption][Anthem of Envy][Aggressive Refrain][/build]

MM N/Mo:

[build][Empathic Removal][Animate Bone Minions][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Nova][Resurrection Chant][Enfeebling Blood][Protective Spirit][Aegis][/build]

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This.

Still a work in progress meant for my Paragon character:

Motigon P:

[build][Anthem of Fury][Merciless Spear][Finale of Restoration][Mending Refrain][Purifying Finale][Ballad of Restoration][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]

Command P/Rt:

[build][Signet of Spirits][Splinter Weapon][Vicious Attack][Hexbreaker Aria]["Go for the Eyes!"][Anthem of Disruption][Anthem of Envy][Aggressive Refrain][/build]

MM N/Mo:

[build][Empathic Removal][Animate Bone Minions][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Nova][Resurrection Chant][Enfeebling Blood][Protective Spirit][Aegis][/build]

Unless you are going for additional para heroes, you might as well switch out the motigon for Smite Monk/Necro.

Rt/P sounds better than P/Rt. Higher Channeling, can still run anthems, and does a better job with damage.

The Smite Monk/necro can give melee physical SoH and does a superb job cleaning hexes and conditions which plague previous para hero builds. Screw using Emapthic Removal and just use Convert Hex.

It's better to have the basic tools needed for a Para group such as the cleaner, the SoS, or the MM and let the second hero party bring the paras. This way you'll know for sure you have what is needed to prop the group when there are many paras.

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Unless you are going for additional para heroes, you might as well switch out the motigon for Smite Monk/Necro.

Rt/P sounds better than P/Rt. Higher Channeling, can still run anthems, and does a better job with damage.

The Smite Monk/necro can give melee physical SoH and does a superb job cleaning hexes and conditions which plague previous para hero builds. Screw using Emapthic Removal and just use Convert Hex.

It's better to have the basic tools needed for a Para group such as the cleaner, the SoS, or the MM and let the second hero party bring the paras. This way you'll know for sure you have what is needed to prop the group when there are many paras.

Because I am using these heroes on a Paragon character, it makes sense to me to get the shout synergies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If the paragon is alone these are nothing to get excited about, but in a whole group of paragons with shouts ending every second or two they are very powerful... that finale of restoration may get you 65 healing whenever a shout ends, for 30 seconds or so. if you have a shout ending every 3 seconds that is ~650 healing for 5 energy.

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Because I am using these heroes on a Paragon character, it makes sense to me to get the shout synergies.

And you can get para heroes, but it will just be on someone else's bar.

It doesn't matter if there is synergy if there is just a better option out there. An example is Racway.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 11, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

And you can get para heroes, but it will just be on someone else's bar.

It doesn't matter if there is synergy if there is just a better option out there. An example is Racway.

@ Sasori & Daesu:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway
I vanquished everywhere with something similar to racway and it has some deficiencies which I have attempted to eliminate. Please check this build out and let me know what you think, if you have some improvements I'd love to hear about it. I'm looking for some commentary before I submit it to pvxwiki or wherever. Works very well IMO if you like using paragons.

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

And you can get para heroes, but it will just be on someone else's bar.

It doesn't matter if there is synergy if there is just a better option out there. An example is Racway.

Synergy is one good reason to explore paragon heroes for paragon characters. Racway needs to be updated, there are problems with it.

I will check out Khomet's build.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway

Even with the build that I have posted, the results are very promising. Racway may have good damage but I think it doesn't have enough defense to do well in many HM areas.

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Synergy is one good reason to explore paragon heroes for paragon characters. Racway needs to be updated, there are problems with it.

I will check out Khomet's build.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway

Even with the build that I have posted, the results are very promising. Racway may have good damage but I think it doesn't have enough defense to do well in many HM areas.

Racway didn't have good damage, not as much as people suggest and moreover, the defense was really the weakness of that garbage D/N being the problem. Coupled with condition problems and blocking and the build was just not good.

@ Khoment

I looked at your build and I have a few questions about your build.

1. TNTF is incredibly useful when you cannot keep SY up for any reason. It also protects you as well as mitigate armor ignoring damage, the big problem against SY. I don't think its a wise idea to omit it. It also keeps up AR and gives party heal. I'm not much of a fan of wild throw either

2. I like to have one of the heroes have some form of heal capability, usually prefer 2 support ones so you only have to rely on one dedicated healer for hench. This build doesn't seem to have a healer role or even a support. You may have damage mitigation but you need some red bars up.

3. Wouldn't it just be immensely easier to run the ER curse instead of Anthem of Fury? ER provides + damage, + adren, damage mitigation, and additional damage from barbs. It should also use weaken armor since heroes can't mop worth shit. The extra adren shouldn't be that vital for anything other than envy spam.

4. I'm hesitant in wasting an elite to deal with blocking. Perhaps you could put another on the main hero instead of a variant?

5. I'm not seeing any condition removal option other than finale and even then its a cumulative removal, not an immediate one.

6. As you said, a MM would be nice.

I use a MB, SoS rit, and a OoV and the other person im with just stuff any kind of physical, but usually paras with additional splinter.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2010, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@ Sasori & Daesu:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway
I vanquished everywhere with something similar to racway and it has some deficiencies which I have attempted to eliminate. Please check this build out and let me know what you think, if you have some improvements I'd love to hear about it. I'm looking for some commentary before I submit it to pvxwiki or wherever. Works very well IMO if you like using paragons.

Sorry to say that it didnt work as well for me as I have hoped. I brought it out to Dalada Uplands HM and there wasn't enough red barring. Basically I agree with Master on this one.

I ended up going back to my own build. This is a work in progress so feel free to experiment with it.

EDIT: I asked a guildie to setup the build for me in pvxwiki:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:DarkS...ragon_Daesuway

It consists of a motigon, a n/mo mb, a sos command P/Rt or a sos command Rt/P. The MB can also be replaced by an orders necro in low corpse areas.

Smarty · Feb 12, 2010, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@ Sasori & Daesu:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway
I vanquished everywhere with something similar to racway and it has some deficiencies which I have attempted to eliminate. Please check this build out and let me know what you think, if you have some improvements I'd love to hear about it. I'm looking for some commentary before I submit it to pvxwiki or wherever. Works very well IMO if you like using paragons.

I've been watching this thread as I'm in the process of adjusting my para's heroes' builds myself.

I tried your player para build from that link yesterday with the heroes you suggested earlier in the thread (not quite the same as the ones in that link) and sorry to say it didn't perform anywhere near as good as the standard imba bar with the same heroes. TNTF is too useful to pass up and I just wasn't using Make Your Time. I did like the rit build you posted earlier in this thread, though.

("After the ritualist update I created an Rt/N orders build that has Splinter Weapon, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury. in the last slot I put strip enchantment or well of blood or flesh of my flesh. depending on the area.", "I definitely recommend bringing Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, and Go For The Eyes on your paragon or the heroes. This works well enough that I don't have Morgahn running Stunning Strike very much anymore, the interrupts are coming from every character and from the spirits too.", from post #10 by Khomet.)

Current bars on me and mine, minor runes except where stated:

Me: OQGjUymG6S4bhfxgAh5iXFpbubA - swift javelin, anthem of weariness, SY, TNTF, EBSoH, FGJ, focused anger, AR; spear12, lead11, comm6

Morgahn: OQCjUimMqO4bLMI+CL+Zx7Y3NA - swift javelin, GftE, anthem of guidance, anthem of envy, anthem of disruption, bladeturn refrain, fallback, AR; comm12, lead10(+maj), spear8

Hayda: OQCjUqnK6S4b+iiYcYpYqYubybA - swift javelin, spear of redemption, song of purification, ballad of restoration, finale of restoration, mending refrain, AR, signet of return; mot10, spear10, lead11

Razah: OASjQoiMJSYMXTlTdiMTGCTCPCA - splinter, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury, strip enchant; chan12, blood10, spawn8

Will need some further playtesting next week no doubt.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

Me: OQGjUymG6S4bhfxgAh5iXFpbubA - swift javelin, anthem of weariness, SY, TNTF, EBSoH, FGJ, focused anger, AR; spear12, lead11, comm6

Morgahn: OQCjUimMqO4bLMI+CL+Zx7Y3NA - swift javelin, GftE, anthem of guidance, anthem of envy, anthem of disruption, bladeturn refrain, fallback, AR; comm12, lead10(+maj), spear8

Hayda: OQCjUqnK6S4b+iiYcYpYqYubybA - swift javelin, spear of redemption, song of purification, ballad of restoration, finale of restoration, mending refrain, AR, signet of return; mot10, spear10, lead11

Razah: OASjQoiMJSYMXTlTdiMTGCTCPCA - splinter, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury, strip enchant; chan12, blood10, spawn8

Will need some further playtesting next week no doubt.

It performed better than Khomet's since it has more healing. But if you have included a MM it could have been even better. Minions also synergize with Paragon leadership granting more energy.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 12, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Racway didn't have good damage, not as much as people suggest and moreover, the defense was really the weakness of that garbage D/N being the problem. Coupled with condition problems and blocking and the build was just not good.

@ Khomet

I looked at your build and I have a few questions about your build.

1. TNTF is incredibly useful when you cannot keep SY up for any reason. It also protects you as well as mitigate armor ignoring damage, the big problem against SY. I don't think its a wise idea to omit it. It also keeps up AR and gives party heal. I'm not much of a fan of wild throw either

my variant imbagon has two different ways to charge SY instantly and I can do it even while blind. I also charge SY instantly if I use a spear attack while Anthem of Fury is on me. With max kurzick rank and the above conditions I can't remember any time when SY has been down. Also, TNTF can't be kept up all the time. If you like it go ahead and use it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

2. I like to have one of the heroes have some form of heal capability, usually prefer 2 support ones so you only have to rely on one dedicated healer for hench. This build doesn't seem to have a healer role or even a support. You may have damage mitigation but you need some red bars up.

You get healing with the henchmen or a friend and his heroes, this set is purely offense with Imbagon defense thrown in. Notice that I do have one of the paragon variants set up for healing and condition removal, it works well if you want to bring only one healer henchman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

3. Wouldn't it just be immensely easier to run the ER curse instead of Anthem of Fury? ER provides + damage, + adren, damage mitigation, and additional damage from barbs. It should also use weaken armor since heroes can't mop worth shit. The extra adren shouldn't be that vital for anything other than envy spam.

I tried the ER curses/orders, the DPS was about 30 points lower with that build as opposed to the Rt/N SoS/splinter/orders. Rt/N is clearly better imo. There's nothing preventing you from having both though... if a buddy can bring an ER curses/orders hero that is great, if he can run AP MoP caller that is even better.

re: Anthem of Fury... I think it is underrated, especially for physical heavy teams. It is basically Dragon Slash for the whole party. Now if people rave about how great dragon slash is, how much better would that be if you can give everyone the adrenaline gain from dragon slash and free up their elite for something else? Hundred Blades, Wounding Strike, Stunning Strike are some examples. Compared to Dark Fury the advantage of Anthem of Fury is 4 adrenaline gain *now* instead of gaining that 4 adrenaline over 4 hits. Feel free to experiment with other elites though, I did most of my vanquishing with that character running Song of Purification, the condition removal is very useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

4. I'm hesitant in wasting an elite to deal with blocking. Perhaps you could put another on the main hero instead of a variant?

Sure, you can change as you see fit... but let me ask you this... if most of your damage is coming from physicals, aren't unblockable attacks useful? Your damage output will be crippled as soon as someone uses guardian, aegis, whirling defense, etc. This build has a lot of unblockable and even if they manage to block an attack we have wild strike to remove stances and Splinter Weapon which still does splash damage even if it is blocked. Go fight some raptors with physicals and you'll see what I mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

5. I'm not seeing any condition removal option other than finale and even then its a cumulative removal, not an immediate one.

This build is only four characters, you bring one or two henchmen healers and some additional damage too. If you don't think the hench healers can deal with conditions adequately you can take the leadership/motivation hybrid paragon and take Song of Purification, Finale of Purification, or both. You could even put Cautery Signet on the other paragon instead of Anthem of Guidance but I think that's overkill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

6. As you said, a MM would be nice.
I use a MB, SoS rit, and a OoV and the other person im with just stuff any kind of physical, but usually paras with additional splinter.

Yeah remember that this is only half of the team of 8 characters, seems like my build describes the 'paras with splinter' that you were talking about.

The other half can be sabway or discord or anything really. Physicals and/or MM are preferred over casters because of all the physical buffing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

I've been watching this thread as I'm in the process of adjusting my para's heroes' builds myself.

I tried your player para build from that link yesterday with the heroes you suggested earlier in the thread (not quite the same as the ones in that link) and sorry to say it didn't perform anywhere near as good as the standard imba bar with the same heroes. TNTF is too useful to pass up and I just wasn't using Make Your Time. I did like the rit build you posted earlier in this thread, though.

("After the ritualist update I created an Rt/N orders build that has Splinter Weapon, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury. in the last slot I put strip enchantment or well of blood or flesh of my flesh. depending on the area.", "I definitely recommend bringing Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, and Go For The Eyes on your paragon or the heroes. This works well enough that I don't have Morgahn running Stunning Strike very much anymore, the interrupts are coming from every character and from the spirits too.", from post #10 by Khomet.)

Current bars on me and mine, minor runes except where stated:

Me: OQGjUymG6S4bhfxgAh5iXFpbubA - swift javelin, anthem of weariness, SY, TNTF, EBSoH, FGJ, focused anger, AR; spear12, lead11, comm6

Morgahn: OQCjUimMqO4bLMI+CL+Zx7Y3NA - swift javelin, GftE, anthem of guidance, anthem of envy, anthem of disruption, bladeturn refrain, fallback, AR; comm12, lead10(+maj), spear8

Hayda: OQCjUqnK6S4b+iiYcYpYqYubybA - swift javelin, spear of redemption, song of purification, ballad of restoration, finale of restoration, mending refrain, AR, signet of return; mot10, spear10, lead11

Razah: OASjQoiMJSYMXTlTdiMTGCTCPCA - splinter, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury, strip enchant; chan12, blood10, spawn8

Will need some further playtesting next week no doubt.

Okay thanks for the input. I see a lot of people like their TNTF.

I thought I would make a comment on the P/Rs in case there is any confusion. The whole point of the volley paragons is to deliver mass damage with Volley and Splinter weapon, it is difficult to see the effect of this directly (except for the blue splinters) but the effect is very noticeable for me. Volley + a full Splinter hitting 4 targets is 50-75 damage from Volley and 188 (47 x 4) armor ignoring AoE damage from Splinter. The other volley paragon is doing the same thing so you can imagine the AoE spike. If you need to have a different secondary (for example the P/Me) it's fine to run spear though, you don't get the AoE but they still attack quickly enough. If you run one P/R and grab Aidan then you have two volley/barrage guys dishing damage with splinter weapon and that is about all the ritualist can handle, it doesn't recharge instantly. Against single targets you don't see much difference between spear and bow; in fact, spear is better because of faster attack rate... but against groups that are bunched up together the bow is much better because it can deliver multiple hits at once.

So you may be asking yourself, why P/R with a bow, that is just too weird. Why not bring a R/P instead? There are a couple of reasons why I think P/R is better than the reverse.
1) P/R gets permanent IAS with Aggressive Refrain, it increases damage output by about 50%. Ranger can't use aggressive refrain.
2) P/R can use paragon elites like Anthem of Fury, Song of Purification, etc. The only ranger elites I'd think of using on this build would be Barrage, Expert's Dexterity (for +marksmanship and 33% IAS), or perhaps Infuriating Heat. Since more of the elites I want to use are paragon elites, paragons can use runes to boost those attributes and therefore are better than a ranger would be, and rangers can't use the Leadership stuff anyway.
3) Higher armor level; paragons have 90AL with centurion insignia, rangers have less. This isn't that important with SY up however.
4) Paragons gain energy from their adrenaline-powered shouts and anthems, rangers gain nothing. The energy shouts cost less for paragons than for rangers. Either way the paragon wins if he is using a shout-heavy build.
5) Why Volley and not Barrage? Barrage is clearly better than Volley, but it is not *enough* better to make me use the elite slots on that when I want/need to use it on other things. Most of the team's damage is coming from buffs and not from Volley or Barrage itself... the bow is just a delivery vehicle for the damage buffs.
6) Paragons are way cooler than rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It performed better than Khomet's since it has more healing. But if you have included a MM it could have been even better. Minions also synergize with Paragon leadership granting more energy.

you have an imbagon and two hench healers and that is still not enough healing? O_o what zone were you testing in?

i developed the paragon/ranger variant fairly recently but I have not had much trouble mowing through hardmode with it. The charr can be a little tricky because of the mass knockdowns, otherwise the fire and ice damage is hardly noticeable with SY up all the time.

Those charr love their Aegis chains which is part of the reason why the new build has Anthem of Guidance and Crossfire. It eats them for lunch.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

you have an imbagon and two hench healers and that is still not enough healing? O_o what zone were you testing in?

You need more red barring, SY does not make red bars go up and there are lots of degen hexes and conditions in Dalada uplands from the insects. Max degen from hex and condition stacking is common there.

Quote:

i developed the paragon/ranger variant fairly recently but I have not had much trouble mowing through hardmode with it. The charr can be a little tricky because of the mass knockdowns, otherwise the fire and ice damage is hardly noticeable with SY up all the time.

Those charr love their Aegis chains which is part of the reason why the new build has Anthem of Guidance and Crossfire. It eats them for lunch.

I didnt get to use the build against the charrs yet. But I used it against the insect monk boss and the outcome wasn't good.

I think, like racway, there was an over reliance on SY in the build planning. There are enough hexes and conditions out there that even Racway's hex heavy variant with emphatic removal isn't enough. You also need blocking for damage mitigation (well not really need but it helps against the charr rangers), and red barring to counter the degen.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 12, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You need more red barring, SY does not make red bars go up and there are lots of degen hexes and conditions in Dalada uplands from the insects. Max degen from hex and condition stacking is common there.

I didnt get to use the build against the charrs yet. But I used it against the insect monk boss and the outcome wasn't good.

I think, like racway, there was an over reliance on SY in the build planning. There are enough hexes and conditions out there that even Racway's hex heavy variant with emphatic removal isn't enough. You also need blocking for damage mitigation (well not really need but it helps against the charr rangers), and red barring to counter the degen.

I love Aegis chaining but I don't see how we are going to get any significant blocking in there. Bladeturn Refrain is meh but I suppose you could slot it in if you want. Defensive Anthem we can do pretty easily but it ends when we use an attack skill... not good for this team.

Your motigon and the ones I have used in the past (and the one I posted in the Kway build) are pretty much the same, are you saying that that is not enough? I'll run through there tonight and see if I can make some improvements. Against condition spam you are going to want to bring Song of Purification and just live without Anthem of Fury.

I get what you are saying about red-barring, unfortunately the hench healers are no good at party-wide healing, they have builds which (maybe) are decent in PvP but are not well suited to PvE where we have mass damage from elementalists (e.g. Ruby Djinn) and we have to deal with mass degen on the whole group (e.g. Mandragors). Skills like Heaven's Delight, Divine Healing, Heal Party, Extinguish, Pure Was Li Ming, Recuperation, Never Surrender can help with all of that but the henchmen don't carry them. One thing that you have to accept is that no build is perfect against everything, you can only deal with *most* things and then modify for special cases. For example the mandragor condition spam is so ridiculous that even Song of Purification has a hard time dealing with it, though I would suggest going with that to start and then adding some supplementary condition removal. Hex spam is even more ridiculous because there are no real counters to it other than Hexbreaker Area and Hex Eater Signet, both imperfect solutions. Withdraw Hexes (monk elite) ought to be the perfect answer but it is not usable in its current form. Even at 15 divine favor it will be disabled for 5 seconds per hex removed, and it costs 15 energy to start with. Let's say you use it once to remove a party-wide hex like Suffering, it will recharge for 40 seconds before you can use it again. And that's only ONE hex... it's easy to see how futile hex removal is when all of the hex removal is designed/oriented around PvP and not the hex spamming we have in PvE. That said, the P/Me hex eater paragon that I posted is probably the strongest anti-hex build of any profession, if you can do better please post it.
Realistically, even with that and some additional hex removal you are going to have to suffer through some hexes, there's no way to remove them all. Typical parties just heal through them with a healer's boon monk or similar.
Never Surrender could/should be slotted in on the command paragon or the imbagon to help deal with mass degen, it won't fix everything but you can get +4 health regen on everyone for no cost. The real problem is having a henchman who can deal with conditions in an efficient way. Throwing WoH around is not an efficient way of dealing with -10 health degen on the whole party, you need to cast it 8 times (40 energy and 8 x 4 recharge, plus 8 x 3/4s aftercast). Even RC is not efficient, sure it will heal each character for lots and lots but you would need to cast it at least 8 times to deal with degen on the whole group. Anyway I suggest Never Surrender on one of the command paragons and Song of Purification on the Motigon. For most areas you don't need so much condition removal, though there are always special cases. (e.g. Shards of Orr)

HigherMinion · Feb 13, 2010, 02:21 AM // 02:21

While playing on my paragon I have been playing with the following builds/heroes:

ER hero, irreplaceable.
OoV weapon spammer.
Command paragon hero using Anthem of Envy, GFTE, Anthem of Flame, Swift Javelin, Cruel Spear (or Signet of Removal in hexy/condition areas) sig of return, AR, etc

on some occasions I'd replace the para altogether for an MB, but I enjoy the extra support another para can give.

In 2+6 teams the other human is almost always a MoP nuker with more paragon heroes, with varying builds, chants and shouts.

Daesu · Feb 13, 2010, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I love Aegis chaining but I don't see how we are going to get any significant blocking in there. Bladeturn Refrain is meh but I suppose you could slot it in if you want. Defensive Anthem we can do pretty easily but it ends when we use an attack skill... not good for this team.

My MB carries Aegis.

Quote:

Your motigon and the ones I have used in the past (and the one I posted in the Kway build) are pretty much the same, are you saying that that is not enough? I'll run through there tonight and see if I can make some improvements. Against condition spam you are going to want to bring Song of Purification and just live without Anthem of Fury.

I am not sure what you mean because your motigon in your web build looks quite different from mine. I tried your first set of build from here:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway

But Smarty's motigon is similar to mine.

Quote:

I get what you are saying about red-barring, unfortunately the hench healers are no good at party-wide healing, they have builds which (maybe) are decent in PvP but are not well suited to PvE where we have mass damage from elementalists (e.g. Ruby Djinn) and we have to deal with mass degen on the whole group (e.g. Mandragors). Skills like Heaven's Delight, Divine Healing, Heal Party, Extinguish, Pure Was Li Ming, Recuperation, Never Surrender can help with all of that but the henchmen don't carry them.

Also, I only took 1 hench healer Mhenlo, which is what I take for my own build too.

Perhaps my MB with prots made all the difference to mitigate more hexes/conditions and damage for my build but even replacing the MB with my orders necro seems to work fine. You can take a look at mine here:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:DarkS...ragon_Daesuway

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 13, 2010, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

My MB carries Aegis.

I am not sure what you mean because your motigon in your web build looks quite different from mine. I tried your first set of build from here:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway

But Smarty's motigon is similar to mine.

mmm, yeah, the one from Kway is the P/R variant but had anthem of fury, chorus of restoration, purifying finale, finale of restoration and the other usual stuff (AR, sig of return, two spear skills). I did almost all of the vanquishing with a spear motigon like the one in racway. sorry if i confused the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Also, I only took 1 hench healer Mhenlo, which is what I take for my own build too.

Perhaps my MB with prots made all the difference to mitigate more hexes/conditions and damage for my build but even replacing the MB with my orders necro seems to work fine. You can take a look at mine here:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:DarkS...ragon_Daesuway

Okay I think I have solved this problem. I like the mantids a lot because they have condition spam *and* hex spam *and* big armor ignoring damage, at least the monk boss does. She uses Smite Condition, Smite Hex and Spear of Light for 160-200 damage a shot, and it will hit a lot of your party members. The only real way to deal with this is to have her blast minions with it so that they soak it up and die, which only damages her more. (death nova etc.)

I rated these builds based on very simple metrics... speed of kill and number of party deaths involved (where party deaths = 0 is the goal, obviously).

original Kway: wiped on first attempt, killed group after rez with no deaths
Imbagon variant (no tntf)
p/r volley/command
p/r volley/leadership/motigon with anthem of fury
rt/n SoS/splinter/orders
aidan, eve, mhenlo, lina

notes: did not kill very fast, not enough defense against conditions or hexes.
note 2nd attempt did much better even with dp. pre-summoning spirits helps because the enemy will waste time attacking them.

version 2: 1 death, faster kill
Imbagon variant (no tntf)
p/r volley/command
n/p minion bomber with aura of the lich, and never surrender
rt/n SoS/splinter/orders
aidan, eve, mhenlo, lina

the above results implied that a minion master would help greatly, not only for damage but to distract the enemy. This turned out to be the case, this run was completed with only one death, they must have hit Xandra after she sacced from Order of Pain, she was rezzed almost immediately and I didn't realize she had died until I saw the DP. Killing the group was faster than before. Still not enough defense against conditions or hexes though the armor-ignoring AoE damage was taken care of, it just killed the minions and helped kill the enemy.

version 3: (0 death, much faster kills: winner!)
Imbagon variant (no tntf)
p/r volley/command
p/me hexbreaker paragon: OQWjMglMqO47KMHeEq7cCub5NA
n/p discord minion bomber: OABCUsxkCYMTVAaQVVC4iwWI
aidan, eve, mhenlo, lina

run 3 had very good defense against hexes and conditions and kill speed was excellent. no deaths and no one even close to death. much much better.

So what have we learned here... the P/Me saved the day imo, and adding discord and foul feast helped the damage and took care of the conditions. the imbagon and p/r commandagon were unchanged throughout the process so as not to have too many variables. TNTF was not necessary at all though it can't hurt, the healing would help a little against mass degen, though 60 points every 20 seconds is not much to get excited about.
also note that we lost splinter weapon and the kill speed was fine anyway.
eve carries mark of fury which might help with adrenaline, though the targets were dying way too fast for that to be of much help. The P/Me could also carry Anthem of Fury without any modifications so we would still have all the strengths of the original concept while losing some hex defense. She still has two AoE hex removal skills so that doesn't seem like a weak option at all.

I have pretty well convinced myself that this should be the new team build for Kway, it is stronger in all defensive areas than the original, if perhaps less AoE damage. I am still thinking of ways to work Splinter Weapon in there, perhaps I'll modify the necromancer. The paragons don't have any attributes to spare, nor is their secondary free. The Discord worked out great because the paragons are already delivering plenty of conditions, so the Discord bomber just drops Putrid Bile on a target and Discords it. Eve also carries a couple of hexes so this worked out pretty well, I didn't have to micro anything.

Horai Wingshielder dropped her (its?) green for me while I was doing this as well. XD It's been a pretty good day.

Daesu · Feb 13, 2010, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Horai Wingshielder dropped her (its?) green for me while I was doing this as well. XD It's been a pretty good day.

Looks good, I should try it later and check it against mine. Usually if a build passes Horai well, I would test it against the charrs, the caster group right outside town, then the archers (with the +1 Flame shielder).

Only the best HM 3 heroes build would pass through all these with 0 deaths. Then I would bring it to HM Riven Earth for a test spin and a different kind of challenges.

MasterSasori · Feb 13, 2010, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

version 3: (0 death, much faster kills: winner!)
Imbagon variant (no tntf)
p/r volley/command
p/me hexbreaker paragon: OQWjMglMqO47KMHeEq7cCub5NA
n/p discord minion bomber: OABCUsxkCYMTVAaQVVC4iwWI
aidan, eve, mhenlo, lina

run 3 had very good defense against hexes and conditions and kill speed was excellent. no deaths and no one even close to death. much much better.

So what have we learned here... the P/Me saved the day imo, and adding discord and foul feast helped the damage and took care of the conditions. the imbagon and p/r commandagon were unchanged throughout the process so as not to have too many variables. TNTF was not necessary at all though it can't hurt, the healing would help a little against mass degen, though 60 points every 20 seconds is not much to get excited about.
also note that we lost splinter weapon and the kill speed was fine anyway.
eve carries mark of fury which might help with adrenaline, though the targets were dying way too fast for that to be of much help. The P/Me could also carry Anthem of Fury without any modifications so we would still have all the strengths of the original concept while losing some hex defense. She still has two AoE hex removal skills so that doesn't seem like a weak option at all.

I have pretty well convinced myself that this should be the new team build for Kway, it is stronger in all defensive areas than the original, if perhaps less AoE damage. I am still thinking of ways to work Splinter Weapon in there, perhaps I'll modify the necromancer... The Discord worked out great because the paragons are already delivering plenty of conditions, so the Discord bomber just drops Putrid Bile on a target and Discords it. Eve also carries a couple of hexes so this worked out pretty well, I didn't have to micro anything.

I wouldn't change the build just yet. You tested it for high condition/hex control area but this may not also be optimal all areas because the majority of areas don't have hexes/conditions that become anything more than a nuisance.

In addition, there are a couple more places you can test so you can be sure.

1. Gate of Abaddon territory (not mission). This area has balanced teams of high level monsters. It will give you an idea of what the build will perform overall as it encompasses many of the the more common archetype build of classes. Word of Madness, Shadow of Fear blahblahblah

2. Undead in the desolation such as Joko's Domain. Undead cause a problem via 2 things. First is that they carry vocal minority which will absolutely destroy para teams without good hex removal. If you want to test condition and hex removal, this is the place to do it because you will know whether or not removal was adequate. Second is that the undead revive each other and that means you need to kill fast or risk resurrection.